Unexpected Hobbies of Financial Advisors Ep 33: Financial Advisor Patrick Ritter on Fly Fishing for Rough FishJoin hosts Brian Wright and Joshua Walker on Unexpected Hobbies of Financial Advisors as they chat with financial advisor Patrick Ritter about his unique and unexpected hobby: fly fishing for rough fish species. From Patrick's experience with overlooked species and locations to his visual game approach, this episode offers a fascinating insight into a hobby that challenges both patience and skill. Discover how Patrick's pastime relates to his professional life, his memorable adventures, and the valuable life lessons he's learned along the way.00:00 Introduction to Unexpected Hobbies of Financial Advisors Podcast01:18 Meet Patrick Ritter: Fly Fishing Enthusiast01:56 The Challenge and Thrill of Fly Fishing for Rough Fish03:40 Growing Up with Fishing07:06 Fishing in Unexpected Locations11:18 The Art and Strategy of Fly Fishing16:27 Family and Fishing: Passing Down the Hobby18:20 The Fly Fishing Community and Gear26:45 Women in Fly Fishing27:27 Balancing Work and Fishing28:43 Fishing with Family29:44 Challenges and Wildlife Encounters35:15 Positive Memories and Life Lessons38:14 Fly Fishing as a Lifelong Passion43:42 Getting Started with Fly Fishing47:17 Future Plans and Final ThoughtsConnect with Patrick:Fishing Blog: www.riverkingfishing.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickritter/Website: https://www.corepln.com/
[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Patrick Ritter with Core Planning and my Unexpected Hobby is Fly Fishing for Rough Fish Species. Welcome to Unexpected Hobbies of Financial Advisors, the podcast where we interview fellow financial advisors about their pursuits and pastimes beyond their professional persona, some of which may be surprising to their colleagues and clients. We're interested in what makes them tick and how their unexpected hobbies might or might not relate to their everyday lives.
[00:00:28] Here's our discussion with this week's guest. Welcome to the Unexpected Hobbies of Financial Advisors podcast. I'm Brian Wright with Fiduciary CFO and alongside me, my partner in podcasting, Joshua Walker. It's good to be back. I spent some time podcasting remotely, but it's nice to be sitting at the same table again. Yeah, it's nice to not have to edit three pictures. Go back to editing two, making it as easy on me in post-production as possible.
[00:00:58] Good. Very good. All right. Well, today we have an interesting hobby. Well, that means to be seen. Well, I think it's interesting. I didn't know immediately what it was. We talked before we went on. Like I didn't know what it was and you had to fill me in a little bit, but we're about to be filled in a lot of it. So we have Patrick here talking about fly fishing for rough fish. Yep. Rough fish species, right? Rough fish.
[00:01:25] And so welcome, Patrick. Thanks for coming on and telling us about your unexpected hobby. Thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it. You could talk about this for far more time than you give me today. So the beauty about hobbies is people, it's like asking people about their kids. They'll go on and on and on. And that's, that's why we have fun doing this. Yes. Except you've been invited to do so this time. So, and we're happy to hear it. Yes. Yes. The term nerd used to be something that was derogatory. Now it's just something you're passionate about. So absolutely in that category myself.
[00:01:56] So how did you get into this and how long have you been doing it? Yeah, I've always fished my entire life, but I would say in the late two 20, like 20 teens, 2017, I had one job gap that gave me a good month to go fish as much as I wanted. And it was that pre-retirement kind of spotlight moment that I thought, man, this is what I will do someday when I'm older.
[00:02:18] And instead thought, I want to do more of this now. And so I did a lot of fishing around rivers and other, I would call overlooked places, places where there's a lot of fish, but it's not necessarily scenic or beautiful. And so I did a lot of that fishing. And then after a while, I started to pick up fly fishing solely for the reason I could catch carp because carp are one of the, I think one of the best, they're non-game fish, but they are so much fun to catch.
[00:02:43] And so I wanted to try to catch one on a fly rod. They got me all into this whole world of fly fishing for non-game fish species. And so one thing that makes it different, I think, is that a lot of times you're fishing for predatory fish. So bass, trout, they're out there looking for other things to eat regularly, whereas a lot of these species are scavengers. So you have to really convince them to take a fly, which can sometimes be a challenge.
[00:03:09] So as though fishing wasn't hard enough already, you're going to go the extra mile to put yourself in an undesirable location and then make it extra challenging. Yeah. You have to be good with rejection. So I get rejection a whole lot more fishing than I do the rest of my life. You can't just tell yourself there's no fish here because you know there's fish there. They're just not wanting what you're putting out there. And that's the best part of fly fishing. You can see them. It's a visual game too. So, oh yeah. Like I said, we can go on and on. So you'll probably have to cut me off at points.
[00:03:40] Okay. So you said you grew up doing it. Was that fly fishing or angling? How old were you when you first had a rod in your hand? Oh, like in my early years, probably like five or six years old. I remember I lived luckily in a suburban part of North St. Louis, but I had access to lakes all around me. I lived right next to a pasture with horses and stuff. So it wasn't at all a suburban feeling place. But anyway, I used to go fish with my friends in grade school. My dad and my uncles all taught me how to fish.
[00:04:07] So I didn't get into fly fishing until I was an adult, even though I had a rod when I was 15. I just never used it. It just always, it takes a lot of work to get good at it. So I just never put the time in until I was older. So yeah. Yeah. Brian mentioned that I'm a fisherman and I've never, ever, ever done fly fishing, only ever angling, whether from a boat or from the land.
[00:04:27] But it's, I'm hoping to learn a lot as, as well. And okay. So then when you were growing up, were you primarily catch and release or are you catching your dinner or a bit of both? Mostly catch and release. Yeah. I don't know that I've always been, had a super ethical reason for it. I think decided convenience. So I just kind of like to, like to be able to catch fish again. So I'd throw them back out there and have reason to come back.
[00:04:52] So yeah. Like, like the dog that catches the car. What am I supposed to do with this thing now? I'll just, I'll throw it back and do it again. Right. Right. Pretty much. And so what makes a fish undesirable and, and yeah, what makes, what puts a fish in this category? And is that a category that's stable over time? I think a lot of things in life, I think it's perception, right? So somewhere along the line, somebody's dad taught them that these are not fish you keep. These are fish that you throw on the shoreline. You let them die. You don't even return to the water.
[00:05:21] And so I don't understand where that came from, but I think, especially in the world of fly fishing, there's a lot more, I don't want to say it has a pedigree of elitism, but sometimes fly fishing, it's definitely kind of exclusive in terms of some of the places you go to and maybe the equipment you use and all those types of things. And I think the idea of fly fishing for fish that nobody wants to begin with, you have, it's kind of that blue ocean idea, right?
[00:05:50] That there's all this opportunity out there. Everybody spend their time in the Red Sea. I'm going to fish the blue ocean. I'm going to give as many opportunities as I can out there. So rough fish or non-game fish, however you want to word it, is definitely an opportunity because they're overlooked. Nobody's fishing for them. Sure. And will you do any eating now or is it exclusively, I mean, is it the sort of fish that this is inedible and that's why people don't want them? I don't, I've heard a variety of things. Most of the time it's where I fish.
[00:06:18] I know where I fish at is not really, I wouldn't want to eat anything there. So some of the places I've gone to, yeah, I mean, I can smell the water. I can get an idea that this is probably not a good site. There's also the stream team does tests every year. So you can always look and see what were the counts for bacteria and other things in the waters you're fishing. So those all tell you not to keep anything. So it sounds like you're, it sounds like you're fishing in rivers is what it sounds like. A lot of tributaries of the Missouri and Mississippi around Rilo.
[00:06:47] So I grew up right by the confluence of those two rivers. And so there is endless opportunity around where I live. It's just a matter of how many weeds you want to go through or how many unsafe neighborhoods or how many, you know, nasty water sources do you want to pursue to find these fish? Oh yeah. So you're doing this not just out in a state park someplace, but anywhere that there's water and critters in the water, you're willing to take your rod and fish in some unexpected locations then?
[00:07:17] Yeah, I would say some of my favorites have really been a lot of like highway overpasses. So there's creeks that you see when you're driving by and nobody bothers to even say, are there fish in there? So those have been some of my favorite spots just to start there and then walk on down along the shoreline or the creek from there. So that's been one of my favorite spots. There's some other spots too. I think if I describe one of my favorites, I'll give it away in the St. Louis area.
[00:07:42] But it's a very unique body of water that runs right through the center that is a mixed juice resource. So there are some spots have sewage, some spots have just drainage. And so when it rains a lot, lots of fish show up there. So we go catch them while they're there. Okay. So when you say mixed use, it's not like you're dealing with tubers and canoe people coming down the sewage creek. It's just a matter of mixed water sources that are there. Okay. Okay. Okay. That makes more sense.
[00:08:11] You know, there are a lot of overpasses and you don't often see people either over here in Indianapolis, the White River, Cicero Creek, none of that. I haven't ever noticed anybody taking advantage of the opportunities. And another one too would be overflow ponds. So those bodies of water next to creeks or rivers, they get flooded. They get reloaded with new fish every spring and in the fall sometimes. So those are great places too. Sure.
[00:08:35] I guess with two incredibly major rivers nearby, there's going to be a fair amount of opportunities for flooding and then back and flooding and back. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's a lot of fun. Is this something that you do with other people that have gotten into it or are you out on your own? Yeah. I would say I do most of it on my own, but I do have a few friends that like to do this also. So I do try to meet up and do that together when we can.
[00:09:00] And the uncles and cousins who taught you to fish, you know, the right way, are they aghast at what you're doing now? The black sheep with the family doing this crazy stuff or have you brought them to the dark side? Yeah. Some of them probably wouldn't join me for that. I've talked about it with several. I even have a relative who's a fly fishing guide and I can't convince him to go with me somewhere. The places I go to. But I've been able to go with him on some rivers around here though. So you've talked about the state Louis area.
[00:09:26] If you were to travel to a conference or something, is this the sort of thing where you would take a rod and reel, check it, and find another mixed use overpass someplace in Denver or something? You know what? I haven't done that yet. I've definitely taken it on personal trips that weren't, you know, I didn't intend to do any fishing, but I still brought my rod with me. And those have been some of my most unexpected and fun adventures for sure. So I did go to, people wouldn't believe this story, but I did go to Hilton Head for a vacation.
[00:09:55] And I did bring my rod with me and we caught a variety of fish. But the last day I was there right by this tennis court, there was a pond and there was a tarpon in there. And because it's so close to the ocean, there was some inlet that this tarpon got in there. And you would never think a tarpon was there, much less one that big. And like I said, people think it's a tall tale. I lived it. I saw it. I spent an hour trying to catch it over and over again. Never did. But anyway, I hooked it and I spit it out.
[00:10:25] So that story ended with a thud. I thought we were going someplace different. Okay. Okay. Interesting. All right. And so are there limits to the time of year? It's here currently the second week of February. I imagine some fishing you can't do. Well, hang on. Do you do ice fishing or is it strictly when the surface is clear? Yeah, I haven't yet. No. So mostly the spring and summer and the fall are the best time. So a lot of these fish species are usually most active in the summertime.
[00:10:54] So that's pretty much go time. Okay. So are you, do you choose, are you going in looking for a certain species? It's like, okay, this cast or this, this, this fly that I'm going to use, like I want to catch a carp. And you're going in with that attitude. It's just like, I'm going to put this piece of bubblicious on the end of this fly and throw it out there and see what, see what jumps on it. A lot of this observation. So fly fishing is a pretty visual game, not always, but most of the time it is.
[00:11:25] And so going to the spots, the usually spots I've been to before, either walking around or being outdoors and just noticed fish that are either have surface activity going on. So sometimes carp will come up to the surface and they'll do what's called glooping where their mouths are actually on the surface of the water. So at least you can see that there are fish here. It's just a matter of, can I come back at a time when they are feeding the way I want them to feed? And then can I then pick a fly that's going to represent what they're feeding?
[00:11:51] And so a lot of times if it's not, you know, visually seeing them, it's at least I know they're there and I can, it's a lot more observing. It's more hunting than it is fishing. I would say most of the time too. So a lot of times you are observing their behavior. You're trying to find a target and you're pursuing that target with the intent of can I convince this one to bite? Whereas bass or trout, you might be kind of casting everywhere to find a fish.
[00:12:20] This is much more targeted. So for a fish like a, like a tart or like a carp, which I don't know a lot about, but my at least urban legend I've always heard of carp is they'll eat about anything. Does that make it easier because they'll eat about anything or does it make it harder because now you have an unlimited possibility of what you could try to catch it with. You got to decide what he's hungry for that day. Yeah. I wish that it was easier because it'd be a heck of a lot more fun, but they're actually one of the most intelligent fish out there and they're very aware of their other surroundings.
[00:12:50] And so they're much more, I would say they spook a lot easier. And so a lot of times how you dress, your posture, the shadows that you're casting while you're walking towards a fish that you want to try to catch that can just ruin your entire spot. So you can have several of them in one spot. And if you're not watching what you're doing, you're easily going to spook one. And then they'll at one moment, this big explosion happens and they turn up the water and they're gone. So,
[00:13:16] so you have to be very careful because they were very spooky. And also the two on top of that, they eat a variety of things around divorce, right? They could eat. Sometimes they do eat fish and crawfish, but where I live at most of the time they're eating just material on the ground. So at the bottom of the Creek. So a lot of times it's representing things like, you know, larvae of other insects or miniature crawfish,
[00:13:44] just different types of nymphs, which are just kind of like basically kind of a, a junior insect that's hasn't yet grown up. So anyway, all those things you try to represent with the flies that you throw. So, and those are all things that would live under the water. So not oxygen breathers, but metabolizing some other way and, and food. Yep. Huh? Yep. Okay. Okay. And you mentioned that carps you enjoyed fishing for because they are so fun.
[00:14:14] What is it about them that makes them fun other than them being skittish? And, uh, is it that they fight really well or what is it? Yeah, they're a challenge for one thing. They get very large, so you can definitely catch a 10 pound car green time you're out. Whereas, you know, a bass or a trout fisherman might fish their entire lives to catch a 10 pounder. You can do that this afternoon. If you're carp fishing, you can convince one to buy, right? Or to buy, not to buy, to buy, And, um, and so after, you know, that's one part. And also too, I mean,
[00:14:43] they are just like freight trains. I mean, as soon as you hook one, they take you on these runs. A lot of fly fishermen, they don't even get into the backing of their reel. The backing is kind of the, the line that's behind the fly line itself. And you don't really get into that unless you get a big fish that takes you for a run, right? Right? Carp will do it almost every time you catch one. So, so that's, that's a thrill to, I would say it varies from other types of, fly fishing. Is it different, different kinds of line that get merged together?
[00:15:13] Or is it just the stuff that was, that went out and got wet and stuff that stayed dry? Yeah. Every fly reel has the backing, which is kind of like the base, so it's like the first line that begins to fill up a spool of a fly reel. And then you have the fly line, which connects to the backing. And then from there you have your leader and then your tippet. And so those are the four components of a fly line. And so very few fishermen even use their reels, much less get into the backing. And so with carp,
[00:15:42] it's a completely different game. So I've, I went to a resort one time and I was there for, with my kids and they were, they had these koi carp out there. And so people were throwing leftover biscuits and other stuff from dinner and breakfast out there. And so I had a white egg pattern fly. It looks just like a crumb from a biscuit. And I mean, I gave the rod to my, at that time, I think he was probably eight years old. And as soon as I hooked that fish, I said, here you go.
[00:16:12] He can fight him. And it just went, took him out in the middle of this lake. And that was at least a 30 minute ordeal to try to get that fish back in. And he never did get that one back in, but I definitely caught more at that trip. So anyway, is this something you've been able to get your kids into that they've learned to enjoy as well? Yeah. The fly fishing, not as much. I took them on fishing a lot as a kid. And so when they were kids and so the,
[00:16:38] the biggest thing of that is getting them to appreciate time in nature and also having time with them really the time in the car, you get together. It's really when you kind of get to get into their world and figure out what's going on in their world and what's frustrating them. What are they excited about? So that's the other part about fishing that is awesome from a dad's point of view. So, yeah, I don't know that I would ever, ever go fishing without my father. It's a thing I do with my dad and it's our thing and I'm not going to do it otherwise, but a heck of a lot of fun to do together. But, but yeah,
[00:17:08] we, we, we would typically go out in a boat. Do you ever go out in a boat or you strictly structures and shorelines? Yeah. Mostly walking and shorelines. So I, I am also enjoying fitness and being outdoors a lot. So I do a lot of outdoor workout groups. I could do a whole other episode on that, honestly. But, so, you know, I can, I've had days where I've gotten 15,000 steps in just fishing. So it's a good way of getting some exercise. And also you're, you know, obviously you'd be out in nature, but I don't use boats.
[00:17:37] I'm also very cheap as a, as a financial planner. So, um, I, I've seen a lot of people lose a lot of money on boats and I figured if I have a friend that will take me once in a while, awesome. Sure. Sure. Fellowship and camaraderie. But waiters, will you go out into the water? Sometimes. Yes. Yeah. I have some boots that I use that kind of go up to my knees and that covers me for most spots. So if I can find a spot and I seem to get a little more access, I'll use the boots,
[00:18:05] but the waiters I save for like my trips. If I go trout fishing or I go to somewhere in Colorado, I'll get in the water a little more, but the spots where I'm at, I don't know that I really want to get too adventurous into the water sometimes. So. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We, whenever we deal, I have guests on that have a hobby that involves interacting with some stuff. We always act about the gear and, and the gear creep. So how many rods do you have? How many reels do you have?
[00:18:33] Is it a problem in your household that you're constantly acquiring equipment? And. It's a problem in my trunk of my car. So I do have that with me again. I mentioned like the overpasses, right? So if I see something, I'm going to go give it a try usually. So I have about 10 in my, in my back of my car. So, but, uh, I'm not a, uh, a fancy person. I, I, I buy at the most, my most expensive ride and real combos a hundred bucks. So, okay. So if I break them, something happens, it's not a big deal. So sure.
[00:19:03] That, that, that fits in with what we did as well, especially we would, we would fly and dad was, we're going to put these in custody of United airlines. How valuable stuff do you want to put in the hold of a CRJ? And, uh, sometimes we've ended up re-equipping at Walmart on our way. Once we get there. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. So did your kids get into it enough? They would continue it as they move into adulthood or is it a wait and see kind of thing? Oh, I hope so. I mean, we'll see.
[00:19:31] Fly fishing is definitely one of those things that's going to take more practice and patience probably than they have right now. But, you know, over time they might. So I think, I think I know for sure though, that they both appreciate the outdoors and being in nature either way, even if they don't like fishing, uh, they'll go with me for a walk and we'll take the dog or we'll get outside and do stuff. So that's, that's the big thing for me. Okay. So four or five minutes ago, you were talking about not spooking the fish and how you're bringing a dog with you. Those seem incompatible unless you've got a very well-trained pup. No, I don't at all. So no,
[00:20:01] I don't take her fly fishing with me though. Some people do it. That's really cute to see all the images on social media of people that do that, but, um, not my dog. She's a couch potato dog mostly. Do you have a social media channel? I do. Yeah. I've, for my river king fishing is the name of my blog. Right. And so I've done it since 2017. It's a hobby blog. It's not a business, but, um, it's something I've always enjoyed doing. And the whole theme is, you know,
[00:20:28] fishing for fly fishing for overlook species and overlook locations. So it's the same thing I'm talking about today. And so Instagram is where I've kind of made a personal kind of diary of catches. And it's one of those things that I think when I'm someday 95 years old, if I live that long or 85 years old and I'm in nursing home and I can't go anywhere. Like, I hope I can access these images someday and just remember each one of those fishes. Cause they all tell a story of an experience that, you know,
[00:20:57] it means a lot really. I mean, it may sound silly saying catching fish and throwing them back is a meaningful experience, but it is. It's, it's yeah. Yeah. I made a real. Go ahead. Yeah. I made a valiant effort to read die with zero. And I got like three chapters in, but that was one of the things that I, that I did get to is that when you're old and you can't do anything and you have the memories and the photographs that you get to enjoy it all over again. And, absolutely. Totally see how that would, that would fit. Go ahead. Go for it. I would just say too. I mean, another thing too,
[00:21:27] is I think that being in nature, fly fishing, running, things like that, those experiences that you feel, it's also a, uh, it's kind of where I find a lot of spirituality in my life too. Also. So even though you can be part of an organized religion and do church stuff, but when you really feel like you're with, you know, a higher power, it's usually in those moments you can feel. So it may sound kind of granola ish, but that's just how it is. no, I get that for sure. Yeah.
[00:21:56] You're talking about your blog. Is there a, a nationwide, or I guess not necessarily nationwide global movement to people that have caught on to doing what you do? Were you one of the first of your kinds that pioneered this? Ah, no, I mean, there was a, there's some guys rough fish.com is one of those pages. That's been around for a long time. Um, I think his name is Eric Kulczynski. I think is the guy that created that website, but there's a Facebook groups for that as well too.
[00:22:24] And these guys are like really into varieties of fish and fish identification. And so they've been fishing for a variety of species forever. So, uh, and there's been people before that too. There's some really good, uh, fly fishing books from even the fifties on carp fishing too. So, so they, they, you know, they have a reputation because people will go to the Bahamas to catch bonefish and have the experience of fly fishing a flat where you can see your fish and visually engage them and then catch them.
[00:22:53] You can do that with carp here in North America on a mud flat. That's like a foot deep. And that's one of my favorite spots around here is just a mud flat. Oh, and yet you can still see them or at least evidence of their activity. Oh yeah. You can see them. Sometimes they have their backs out of the water. Sometimes they're tailing, which is their heads are down and then their tails are on the surface of the water. And so they're just speeding off the bottom and you can see the activity. So you're just a matter of trying to, am I able to get this fly on its dinner plate, so to speak,
[00:23:23] and make it eat. And so sometimes it will. And a lot of times they don't. So, yeah. So I've been fishing for desirable fish and caught an undesirable fish. Does the inverse happen? Like you're going out looking for carp and, and a real, and a real winter catches on, or are the places that you are taking another walleye? Yeah. Or the places you're fishing, like all, it's all undesirable. There's no, there's no self-respecting fish that would be found in those areas. Yeah. No, there,
[00:23:50] there's some places where you'll catch a carp or a crappie or a pan fish, like a bluegill instead. And so that's called being carp blocks sometimes when that happens. Right. So it's not really what your goal was, but you're glad to have something bite that day. So yeah, sure. Thanks for a good photograph. Yeah. And it's a food is the, is the fly. I keep saying the bait, but the fly you use, I mean, is that, is that is, are all of the different rough fish kind of after those, is there some efficiency and just like,
[00:24:18] I'm going to use this fly because they'll all kind of bite on it. Or it's just like, no, I want carp today. So I'm going to use this very particular car because I know the carp like this, but some of the others will, will avoid it. Yeah. I would say that you can find some evergreen patterns. So like a, a black stone fly nymph is one of those flies that just represents any kind of underwater aquatic insects. And so I've, I've been able to catch drum carp and all kinds of other fish on that fly that, and like maybe some variants of like a holy bugger,
[00:24:48] or like a leech pattern. Some of those are pretty evergreen that you can use them anywhere and hopefully you'll catch a carp or some other type of fish there, but they are, like I mentioned earlier, they're pretty intelligent fish and depending on where they live and what they forage on, you have to really switch up your flies pretty dramatically, depending on where you're at. Where I'm at is pretty consistent. If I were to go to Lake Michigan, they eat gobies and those are bait fish. So that's a completely different game than what I'm doing,
[00:25:17] even though they're carp. Uh, I saw somebody this summer, a friend of mine is a fly fishing guide. He shared a video. We had that double, um, cicada hatch basically this summer. Right. Right. And carp were coming to the top. Like it was a small mouth bass taking a top water lure. So I think sometimes conditions and also where they are and what they're foraging on can make them into completely different fish sometimes. So where do you source your lures and your flies?
[00:25:48] So I do sometimes tie my own. I'm not very good at it. So I tie like maybe three or four patterns that are kind of my go-tos that I know I'm going to use a lot of. Otherwise I'll go to, uh, TR Grove here in St. Louis. Uh, I will always plug that fly shop. It's like a home away from home for men. So you'll go there and there's a, uh, wood burning stove. They've got whiskeys lined up. They've got people smoking cigars and just talking fly fishing. And it's kind of the, uh,
[00:26:17] the ironic part is it's right down the street from this woman's, uh, kind of boutique retailer. So it's like a perfect stop for a couple to have her go there. He goes there. Husband daycare. Yeah. When, when, yes. In the fly fishing community, what is the gender balance? And has it been drifting over time or is it still a guy's thing? I think it's still mostly men, but there are definitely a growing contingent of women. And I think, uh, it's a great sport.
[00:26:45] I'd love to see women engage it more for sure. Uh, most of fly fishing guides I've hired in my life have told me that women are way better at it. They're much quicker to learn. They have a fewer bad habits that us, us men kind of stick to and are hard to undo. So more patience, probably all, all the things probably make them way better. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, guys pick up a fly rod and they want to act like it's like a baseball swing and we're just going to chuck this thing out there. Like it's a bait casting lower and you know, a rod and it's,
[00:27:13] it requires more finesse than a lot of us are, or maybe naturally predisposed to, I guess. Okay. Yeah. Oh, I had one on the tip of my tongue, but, it'll, it'll come back to me. Yeah. Oh, good. You mentioned taking your kids out and is this something that you ever have clients or people that you're working with that say, Hey, uh, let's, let's go, take an afternoon and, and spend some time together. That's not talking numbers. You know, I,
[00:27:42] I've had some experiences with people that could become clients eventually, but you know, I I'm definitely one of those people where I've to my own, I would say I could have done better in my career if I was probably a little more, uh, forward and asking for business or trying to make business opportunities happen in my life. Instead, I think I, I value too much, you know, relationships and I don't want to make them weird by doing that part too. But I, I have friends too,
[00:28:09] that I do other things with that are clients and there's no issues at all. So yeah, it's probably my, it's probably my own, uh, my own reservation that hasn't had to happen yet, but I do have in my mind, like this dream of, I, it'd be really cool to take a group of like five guys to, my uncle has a place and, you know, go to his farm pond and just like for the weekend, you know, take them fishing, cook meals with them, hang out, but haven't done that yet. So it's a great,
[00:28:39] it's a great dream. I'd say for now. For the future. Yeah. When you go fishing, is it the sort of thing where it's a spur of the moments? Yeah. You've got the spot, you've got your car, you got the times and you, you throw a line in, or is it a, Hey, I'm going to go out and I'm going to be going for six hours. Um, so I would say definitely. I really got back into fishing the most was when my kids were younger. And back then an hour or two hours was the most you could get. Right.
[00:29:08] Cause you have a lot of responsibilities at home and you don't want to upset things. So, um, as they've gotten older, they're definitely like, Hey, whatever, dad, like, you know, I'm doing my thing, you do your thing. So if I'm gone for four hours, most of the time I'll check in with them on the phone, but most of the time they're good. If they're out seeing their girlfriend or they're working or they're doing something else, they're not worried about me. So, um, but most of the time I usually, the night before I'll have a game plan of what I want to do and I'll have backup to most of the time.
[00:29:36] I'm not driving more than probably half hour anywhere to, to go fishing. So most of the time, 15 minutes away. How does it, uh, what's your relationship with like the rain? If the fish good, bad, it's probably not your thing. Not a good thing. Usually I would say the, the overpasses, right. Again, those are places that as long as the water levels are not raising, arising too fast, uh, those can sometimes give you cover and allow you to catch some fish. But, uh,
[00:30:04] those usually better when you're fishing for your predatory species, like your bass or your crappie, because they're taking advantage of a cloudy sky and rain more so than a, a scavenger fish would probably. Okay. And darkness or strictly while the sun's up? Um, yeah, strictly while the sun's up, it's almost entirely a visual game. Fly fishing is. So, um, I've, I've not tried it at night very much. There are people that go, uh, fly fishing for like brown trout at night on the rivers.
[00:30:33] Like that is not really, that is an awesome idea that is successful for some people, but, um, otherwise fly fishing is pretty much a daylight thing. So, and if it's so visually driven, is there ever any, um, olfactory enticements that you'll add to the end of the line or is it strictly, or would you consider that not fair play? Um, I haven't done that yet, but, um, I've definitely heard of folks that will fly fish for carp, for example, and they're,
[00:31:03] they're very tough to convince, right? I mean, when I first started fly fishing, I think it was eight to 10 weeks before I caught my first cart, you know? So, and that was going probably two or three times a week, just getting rejected over and over again. And most of it was my own, most of it was my own casting ability, but also too, you know, in terms of the presentation, like they really are pretty picky and getting them to bite is a pretty, pretty much a challenging endeavor endeavor. So, um, but I have heard of folks that will use corn pattern flies,
[00:31:32] and then you can dip them in like, uh, basically the, the juice from, uh, from canned corn. And then it gives them that flavor if they really, but you know, that, that would be like, if you are fishing for a tailing carp and there's a mud cloud and they're not as visually picky and they can pick up on the scent, they might do that. I've not done it yet. I'm not saying I'm above ever doing it. I just haven't tried it yet. Yeah.
[00:32:01] I always tell myself I'm not going to bribe the dog, but then something needs to happen. And where's the peanut butter? Absolutely. Especially when you got to give them those vet pills, man, whatever it takes. Yeah. They're not going to eat themselves. Yeah. So you talk about like being in these undesirable locations under like overpasses and things like that. And you have your eyes on the water, are looking for movement. Tell you what, if I'm down in that area, my eyes are on my feet and what I'm about to step on or step around or step over. What, talk to us about what, uh,
[00:32:31] what other sort of wildlife you encounter when you're in the, uh, in the, in the, in the water line in these undesirable locations. Are you going to try to get him to talk about leeches? We had a guy on talking about hiking and eventually we were talking about leeches and I just could barely keep it together. So please don't go for leeches. Unless leeches are the answer. I would, I would, I would, I would think for me, it would be snakes. Why does it have to be snakes? Yeah. Why does it have to be snakes all the time? So, yeah, I'm surprised I haven't, I mean, I, you know, I, I heard this a lot from, you know,
[00:33:01] other people in my, my household before, but why haven't you gotten bit yet? Like you, you deserve to get bitten after all the time you spent along these water, you know, waterways and, and these weeds. I would say in terms of wildlife, you know, sometimes it's, uh, people that are, you know, I don't know if they're on meth or if they're on other substances. So, you know, they might be hanging out in the park that you're walking by on the way to the, the water. So that's sometimes what you come across. It's definitely wildlife. Oh yeah. I think one of my,
[00:33:31] probably one of my more unique ones is on the Merrimack river here. And this couple, it was maybe nine 30 or 10 o'clock and, you know, they get out there in the river. I mean, I wouldn't be sitting there in the river, you know? And so they're walking out there, the guy steps on something, he cuts his foot open, he's bleeding. And, you know, he's yelling at his girlfriend, go get me some of those, uh,
[00:33:58] those Salem lights in my Milwaukee's best and get over here. You know? And I mean, just the people that you come across sometimes are just like, but that's some of the, uh, the more unknown, I'd say that in nature, I mean, I've obviously come across a lot of deer and, uh, other wildlife, but nothing, I haven't really felt threatened yet or in danger yet. Not enough to pick up a handgun hobby. You know, I I've had a couple of times where I feel like I should probably be doing that. And I haven't done that yet.
[00:34:29] So, um, I did have one time with my son where we both almost got swept away in the current on the Merrimack, a different section. So, um, I shouldn't say I've never had any risk of, of, uh, of being harmed. That was one where it was, I was very grateful to have been working out a lot then because I know that I would have been able to maintain my, my core there in the water and hold him and the gear and everything and not get swept away. So, and is this something that his, uh, has his mother heard the story yet? I think so. Yeah.
[00:35:00] So one of those moments where your kid's looking at you and his feet are, you know, in the water going like this and he's saying, don't let me go. Don't let me go. So yeah, that's still in my mind. So yeah. Otherwise I'm, I'm pretty conservative guy. Okay. Well, pivoting slightly. Are there any, uh, special positive memories that you'll take with you the rest of your life that don't involve almost losing your children? Yes. Yeah. Let's contrast that one. Yes. Um, I would say, um,
[00:35:29] I've had two different job gaps in my life. And so I guess one of my lessons taken away from that was that as a kid, I felt like a lot of, you know, I would say there was a lot of judgment of other people. Right. If their lives didn't work in this linear pattern, then something's wrong with them. Right. And so having job gaps, you know, I could have spent that time really beating myself up and saying, you know, why are you in this spot again? And instead I really looked at them as little mini opportunities to kind of figure out,
[00:35:59] you know, what I'm going to do work wise. And then also, you know, where I want to spend my time in doing besides. And so, um, you know, I would say those opportunities have given me a little, little windows into what retirement could look like. And when I think of retirement now, it's not even being done working. It's like, I would like to do fly fishing, guiding on the side, have clients on the side while I'm retired. I'm going to work till I'm 70 or 75 years old, but I still want to have time to do this stuff too. So,
[00:36:30] um, so I think those, those periods of time have been very formative, you know, for me. And so those are my favorites. I don't know that I have, you know, a great story to tell you. That's like amazing. I could tell all kinds of stories that would just, you know, go on forever. But, um, I, the main part though, just being that, you know, life isn't always linear and, uh, you really, it, there's lots of opportunity to figure out what you want to do. I, I've thought of this before. Like,
[00:37:00] wouldn't it be cool if somebody had a business where they worked with people that are planning for retirement and they do what are called like retirement flights, right? You ever go somewhere and get like a flight of drinks, like beers or wines. Maybe they find like three or four things that they get to experiment with while they're in their working years and say, you know what, when I retire, I'm going to volunteer and spend my time on one of these four things that I really honed in on. One of the four options on my flights, you know? Yeah.
[00:37:30] We've got a couple of pre-radio tirees that could benefit from a, from a few things like that. Yeah. That's an interesting way to think about it. So it's like those, those job gaps that kind of give me some of those opportunities that have said, you know what? I want to keep working out outdoors. F3 is a group I'm a part of. So that's one thing that I definitely intend on doing the rest of my, my living years. Fly fishing is another one, you know, volunteering and serving in a variety of capacities are going to be one of those. So, but you know, when you're in your working years,
[00:37:59] I don't know that you always take time to think about what do I really want to do? What's important. So. Gothrop with the rucking was talking about F3, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Yes. Rucking is like amazing exercise. Perfect. Especially if you're carrying a sack of fish. So in January, lots of people get into fitness and you started this before the pandemic, when the pandemic rolled around, were there, was there a spike in interest in the blog and people out getting into fishing? Cause it was an outdoor thing or is that not, does,
[00:38:28] was fishing not the go-to people were to in the trance with their sourdough? Oh yeah, no, absolutely. I would say a lot of interest at that time. I did have a different format on the blog and I did have products that I had sold. And just like a lot of retailers, I had shortages. I couldn't maintain, you know, product there. So, and it's just a matter of just being able to get it, you know? So yeah, a lot of people got interested in it for sure. And there's some really good positives to that. Also, some of the negatives are that with social media,
[00:38:56] I would think there's a lot more of what they call spot burn, right? People just go out there and make this video and say, this great place over here on this intersection, right by the Merrimack river and highway 30, this is a great location. You should come out here and catch fish. And then next weekend, there's 15 people that don't respect the resources the way that you do. And so that's the part I think you want to assume the best in people. But then I think when you experience enough of how they treat natural resources, sometimes you're like,
[00:39:26] Hmm, I don't know that I, I want to make that assumption. So, and that phenomenon happens often enough. It's got its own name spot. Yeah. I always say it's something that came out of the pandemic, especially because that's when you saw a lot more social media exposure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm giving you all kinds of jargon this trip or this. Oh yeah, it's good. Yeah. So I've always associated, you know, fly fishing with like trout or, you know, river fishing and try,
[00:39:56] you know, we're going to go on a trip and go fly fishing, go to Canada or whatever. And did you catch rainbow or did you catch cutthroat? Right. Right. So it's like hearing, hearing your story and how you do this for, you know, the rough fish, does that make you like, it seems to me like you have so much more opportunity to hone your craft of like the actual, like handling the fly fishing that can you just drop in on those, on those proper, you know,
[00:40:25] fly fishing trips and, and just, just kick everybody's butt because you're just like, you had the opportunity to practice way more than a ringer. Yeah. The ringer at the, in the, in the Colorado trip for trout. I don't know. I have gone fly fishing with friends before that have said, man, that cast, like that got all the way out there. And that was, you know, really accurate. Like where the fish was at. So, I mean, over the years as I practiced a lot, yeah, in some ways, yes, but I'm, you know, I've been humbled so many times in my life, uh,
[00:40:55] in a lot of ways, but fly fishing, especially. And so, uh, I would never claim to be like, Hey, I'm, I'm better than a bass fisherman or a trout fisherman at any aspect, because I have gone with my trout fishing friends and they just really embarrassed me before too. So. Are there competitions for your corner of the fishing world? Um, I don't, there are sometimes comp, there used to be, Oh, like different carpalooza. There's different, like, um,
[00:41:24] there's some other events too, where you would try to get as many species of fish caught on the fly over a weekend or a 24 hour period. So that was taking place like in Southwest Missouri in the last recent years. So I used to be really close to like all those names of events and things. It's been a while now, but, um, yeah, so there are some competitions, but mostly it's, it's for fun and for promotion of, you know, valuing the resources that we have. So. Yeah. That's, yeah. That's the,
[00:41:54] the big thing I think in all of this is that, you know, we have all these great fish. They are fantastic to catch just like a trout or a bass would be, and they deserve respect too. So. Sure. Sure. We, we always ask if there's lessons and overlap and, and some of the ways that you were talking about getting a, getting a fish interested, it seemed like it might have some overlap with our marketing strategies. Am I drawing too close to line and dealing with rejection? You've mentioned rejection a couple of times, like, wow,
[00:42:23] there's a skill that is helpful as a financial advisor. Yeah, for sure. I'm still working on that part, actually. I mean, the, the fish rejection is much easier to take, I think, than, than the other form of rejection. But yeah, I would say, you know, one of the things in terms of how I run my practice, I definitely want to work with anyone. So I never want to say that I have a limit, and this is my hourly rate. I do have an hourly rate, but I mean, I don't have a minimum of assets. I don't have a flat rate. And if I below that,
[00:42:53] I go refer that out. I can work with just about anyone. And so I do have an hourly rate for somebody just wants like a one-time check or a project. I do feel like my flat fees are very reasonable too. So I mean, my, the bulk of my, my clientele really are, I would say, you know, middle market, right? Sure. Yeah. And then I, and then I think I have a few folks that are, you know, kind of like the, kind of like the barbell, right? The weights on each end. So, yeah. So there's, there's, there's a mix there.
[00:43:22] So I like the idea of not overlooking any potential person that needs help because everybody needs help, especially in our culture for sure. Yeah. For all the known virtues of, of niching and specialization, there's a real need for generalists who work with ordinary people doing ordinary things. That, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. If somebody was interested in getting into this, what would be the right place to start? Is it online and blogs or is it out in, in nature?
[00:43:52] How do you set yourself up for success? If you think this might be the hobby of your future? Yeah. I would say to start with, if you're interested in fly fishing, YouTube has this fantastic series done by Orvis and it's just called the Orvis guide to fly fishing. It's like probably five or 10 hours long maybe. And, but they, it's mostly trout focused, but they do do one episode on carp and they do an episode on bass too. And so it really is great fundamentals about just learning what is fly fishing and all the different ways to fly fish.
[00:44:21] And then in terms of like fishing for overlooked species, there's so many different people that are into it now. So I would say YouTube is a great resource just to kind of start following some of the people out there that are doing it and learning some of the basics from them. But the biggest part, especially for fishing for more challenging species would be getting out there and learning how to cast and how do I actually approach and stock fish without actually scaring them. And a lot of that's just through, you know,
[00:44:51] trial and error, making mistakes. And then knowing next time not to, not to approach from that angle of the sun, right? Cause you're going to be used to a shadow on them. And now that fish is gone. So, so it's a little bit of both, you know, but I would start there. And then my blog has got some good resources to river king fishing.com. That's just, uh, it's a hobby blog. I've got maybe probably 15 or 20 different articles out there that I've done over the years that are about a variety of different topics. I used to write about just all kinds of things I was interested in.
[00:45:19] And that's this kind of eventually narrowed into this topic of fly fishing for these fish in places that people don't like to go. Usually. How did it get that name river king fishing? So my thought at that time was just that, uh, fly fishing overlooked places for overlooked, I'm sorry, overlooked species in overlooked places. You own the river, like a king. There's nobody else there. Right?
[00:45:43] So I found myself on the river so many times by myself catching fish and look around, like you're used to fishing at lakes and there's people that give you that stink eye when they, you catch like the big fish that day. Right? Right. And so I was out there some days catching. I've been there many times. I had times where I was fishing out there and catching five and 10 fish. And some of these are so big. And I'd be like, I can't believe nobody else is doing this. Like, where is everybody? Where is my audience?
[00:46:13] Well, like, I don't need an audience, but just like, who wouldn't want to be doing this? Right? Right. So, so that's kind of where that came from more or less. It's just owning, you own the water when you go places and fish for fish that people don't like or they overlook. So. Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. What sort of stuff? I don't know if you can or wants to answer this, but when you were selling stuff, what, what did you have for sale on the blog? Oh, yes. I mean, even now you can go out there and there are items that are listed.
[00:46:43] So they are just more or less items that as an affiliate, like I could earn some kind of revenue on, but. Okay. Sure. Mostly it's flies, waiters. Um, it's geared more towards people that are starting out more so than probably your expert anglers. So you don't have your kids out in the garage, tying flies that you're shilling on the website. Yeah. I'm not above that. I mean, sometimes, you know, they could use a little, uh, discipline and structure. So plowing money into their Roth IRAs. 99 income.
[00:47:14] Yes. Excellent. All right. And do you see yourself doing this indefinitely forever? Grandkids into your twilight years, or is there a shelf life on this? Do you think? Yeah, absolutely. So I see myself definitely when I'm retired, maybe even before then, you know, I even have on the blog now a, uh, a listing of like, if you ever want to learn how to fly fish, just a, uh, couple hour session, you know, I would take somebody and, and there's a price listed there, but I don't say, I don't even care if I would get paid. Isn't that,
[00:47:44] it's not really about money, but, uh, yeah, I definitely intend on doing this probably the rest of my life. So. And what, what might happen that would, that would make you stop? Would it be a shoulder injury or, or core weakness or something with your legs that what would make it different enough for you that it just wasn't fun anymore? Being assaulted. Scorpions. A crackhead. You know, maybe that, maybe I'm just asking for that. I don't know. Cause it has to be a knock on wood, man.
[00:48:15] Um, but yeah, um, I was going to say, uh, it would have to be some kind of injury. And so, um, that is one of the reasons why, like we mentioned F3 earlier, that's a big part of it, right? Is maintaining that strength for longevity. That's one of the workouts I've led before with just the intent that I want to be 85 or 90 in the creek someday fishing still. So yeah. And as long as you can by accident, if you don't take care of yourself, as long as you can still see, and then you still are arthritis free enough to work your fingers, then yeah,
[00:48:44] that could work. Are there any, dare I say like bucket list locations? Are there any undesirable, is there any desirable, undesirable locations that you haven't been that you're looking to do? There are, um, there's a few spots I've heard of. I've not gone yet. So I mean, like Lake Michigan, I mentioned earlier up in Chicago, there's also, um, a section of river there also in Chicago. I've heard about, so I've not done that yet. I do like the nice places too, though.
[00:49:14] So, I mean, I haven't gone yet, but you know, obviously I'll have to go to, I want to go to Patagonia. I want to go to, you know, different places throughout the world. Italy, there's some great fly fishing places there too. So I get to go to winter park often, which is, you know, I, I, I feel incredibly grateful that I get to go there fairly often. And the fish aren't big, but it's amazing. You can catch these, you know,
[00:49:45] wild stream fish and what looks like inches of, I mean, like just hardly any water there. And the beauty is just out of this world. So I'm not opposed to beautiful places either. Um, so that that's been pretty cool too, to go to some places and, and catch the conventional things too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a career changer and the family business I came out of wasn't always a family business. There were other partners and we, uh,
[00:50:13] companies roots were in Northwest Colorado. So if you find yourself in Steamboat Springs, I can recommend the Elk river and the Yampa river. Those are beautiful places to be. I have heard some amazing things about that. Absolutely. So on the list still. Good. And if you find yourself, if you find yourself in Indianapolis, the white river is majestic and opaque. It's like both of them here in the Mississippi and the Missouri is, uh, yeah, it's chocolate milk. Yeah. Delicious. Okay. All right. Well,
[00:50:43] we appreciate having you on here. We've got river King fishing. If somebody wanted to find you professionally, where would they go to, to find you when your feet are dry? Yeah. So core planning is a website. It's core pln.com is the website. Um, so that's a big one. And then also I do have a newsletter I do called wealth builders weekly. And so that really just goes to my clients or prospective clients. So it's not a huge number of people, but I think a lot of joy and pleasure. And pride in writing that every week.
[00:51:13] And so that's something that happy to mention as well too, because I enjoy doing that. It's a great deal of fun. Every week. Some people find that the, uh, a slog after a while, but if you're still enjoying it, that's a really good sign. It's been a year. And so I've, I've liked it and, um, I had a whole different theme last year. This year I switched my theme around. So as long as you keep it fresh and then also I'm big on visual. So I've been enjoying incorporating tools like Sora into the newsletter.
[00:51:40] So I have new random videos that I throw into every, every post now just for fun. So I would say that's one of the things about fly fishing is the inspiration you can take from it. But also to, uh, the visuals and, um, I would say the natural beauty encounter. I've applied that throughout all kinds of training purposes, practice management, marketing content type stuff. So says the man sitting in front of a blank white wall. Yes. I did have a picture,
[00:52:10] but I removed it. It seemed a little too, uh, it was too predictable of a picture. So I didn't leave it up. Okay. Okay. Is it, would you do photograph and document your successes? Yeah. So Instagram for river King fishing. And then also too on Pexels, I have a page too, which is basically just a diary of pictures I've taken. And so, um, I have a title of fortunate bystander of beauty while fly fishing,
[00:52:38] because that's basically all it is is pictures of, and most of it's not fish. It's just like, man, I can't believe I captured that image today when I was out chasing fish. So put yourself in the right position and the light comes in the right way. And all of a sudden it's magical. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, uh, crossing one episode over the other, a few times back, we had. Yotaku, the guy who would catch fish and then dab them in charcoal or ink and make the prints.
[00:53:07] And so if anybody's interested in ways other than photography to document the fish, there you go. Kiyotaku episodes, I don't know, three, three, three, four back early January. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. That's a hobby. That's a thing. I know friends that do wood burning too, and those are really amazing images too. They make some, yeah, excellent. All right. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for being with us today. We've had a good time talking about this and, look forward to getting back out there with my rod. Yeah, I, uh, this, this is great.
[00:53:36] We have some retention ponds around here too. So maybe I'll, I'll get it. The kids like it. We always do fishing in Brown County. That's like our, what we, that's what we do there when we go once a year. Oh, and we're like, we need to do this more than just once a year. And then we come back up and we never do it. So yeah, life gets in the way. Watch out for turtles. Um, absolutely. Yes. And thank you both too. I really appreciate this. Obviously, like I said, we could do this for five hours and I have no problem. So awesome. We'll call it here. We appreciate it. Yeah.
[00:54:06] Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Unexpected hobbies of financial advisors is brought to you by fiduciary CFO forward thinking tax and planning solutions for business owners like RIA firms and their business owner clientele. The opinions of Brian, Joshua, and their guests are for entertainment purposes and should not be construed as legal tax, financial, or investment advice. You should know better than to take any of this content seriously.
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